Eradicating poverty

[Maya]

How do you think it could be achieved, or at least how should we work towards it?
Is there anything you think you can do to contribute?

Discuss...

[M4RN1]

Wherever man goes he has the habit to consume everything around him. The population on earth consumes ten times more than it should, resources are running out. If poor people were to become rich or middle class Earth would die out more sooner,

[mindstate]

i made a thread about this a long time ago and i think it is a very interesting subject....from what i know so far...the government tries to keep the poor, poor and the rich really rich...

[Guji-Ji]

Exactly. Poverty could be eradicated tomorrow if the world wanted to. All the billions put into arms and war could easily go into aid and help the world but no.. The governments would lose the stronghold they have over the world.
It's called the Balance of Power...(new term I learnt in Uni)

[Kayz]

Originally Posted by Maya How do you think it could be achieved, or at least how should we work towards it? Is there anything you think you can do to contribute? Discuss...

For me it would depend on where this poverty is, as we have many people living in poverty here in the UK. However im going to think about the other side of the world where it is much needed. There is so much we can give people, but by giving i dont think it would help either, i feel it needs to be something permanent.

For instance when i went back home many years ago to my mums village in India i was quite touched by the poor people that were there, what hit me the most was that a poor family had prepared us a big feast! "Sigh"

My dads side is from Bangladesh and a lot of money and development has gone into my dads side of the area, however i noticed nothing or very little is happening on my mums side. To cut a long story short, i promised my mum when i grow up i'd be helping her side of the area more so than my dads side, as its much needed there.

Now my plan is to start something for those who are in the village, setup workshops or even small businesses for them to run? I met a family member who drove a little people carrier aka "Baby Taxi" or otherwise known as an "Auto" in India. He made a small living off that.

I realised by giving them a job or something which they could do to start earning themselves a living would certainly bring them out of poverty. This way they wont rely on me and i wont need to worry about them i.e. my mum sending money to India. This way i feel they would be able to adopt new skills to feed themselves and their families.

This way they wont need to be dependant on anybody and be able to generate their own income.


Coming back to poverty in the first world, countries in Europe and the US would not need any materialistic or monetary help. The best way i feel to tackle poverty is with education and family support.

[Maya]

I agree! Hmm, as long as mankind is controlled by ego, pride, and greed, poverty will never be eliminated.... The "rich" must have the poor in order to be "rich".... as long as the ego craves power, and wealth is power, there must be those over whose power can be wielded.... the poor... and those seeking power always want more... the poorer people are, the more power the "rich" have...

[Maya]

Originally Posted by Kayz For me it would depend on where this poverty is, as we have many people living in poverty here in the UK. However im going to think about the other side of the world where it is much needed. There is so much we can give people, but by giving i dont think it would help either, i feel it needs to be something permanent. For instance when i went back home many years ago to my mums village in India i was quite touched by the poor people that were there, what hit me the most was that a poor family had prepared us a big feast! "Sigh" My dads side is from Bangladesh and a lot of money and development has gone into my dads side of the area, however i noticed nothing or very little is happening on my mums side. To cut a long story short, i promised my mum when i grow up i'd be helping her side of the area more so than my dads side, as its much needed there. Now my plan is to start something for those who are in the village, setup workshops or even small businesses for them to run? I met a family member who drove a little people carrier aka "Baby Taxi" or otherwise known as an "Auto" in India. He made a small living off that. I realised by giving them a job or something which they could do to start earning themselves a living would certainly bring them out of poverty. This way they wont rely on me and i wont need to worry about them i.e. my mum sending money to India. This way i feel they would be able to adopt new skills to feed themselves and their families. This way they wont need to be dependant on anybody and be able to generate their own income. Coming back to poverty in the first world, countries in Europe and the US would not need any materialistic or monetary help. The best way i feel to tackle poverty is with education and family support.

That's really good Kayz, we should all try and limit the degree to which it exists.

The concept, "give a man a fish and you feed him for a day, you teach him to fish and you feed him for a lifetime", rings true...

[mindstate]

imagine a world...where no form of currency was used...no money...nothing used to buy or sell things...

imagine..

then the concept of poor and rich would cease to exist....

venus project...

[MojoJojo]

Mindstate you almost got it.

It's called the creation of the replicator. In Star Trek (Next Generation/Deep Space Nine/ and many more). Currency doesn't exist on earth - most things like food and other resources are replicated.

It will never eradicate war & power & hungry dictators trying to take over the world - but hey it will stop people growing hungry - and even disease in some respects.

If they pumped resources into achieving such a feat, people could live in deserts - on the moon - in out of space.

Ofcourse this will never happen as in human nature - greed will always rear its head in some form.

[Kayz]

Originally Posted by mindstate imagine a world...where no form of currency was used...no money...nothing used to buy or sell things... imagine.. then the concept of poor and rich would cease to exist.... venus project...

You know thats exactly what i was thinking many years ago.. and have spoken to friends about it. Imagine everything was free, but in order to get that something you need to put effort into it and then it becomes something otherwise it would be nothing. i.e. If you want a table you need somebody to cut down a tree first.

But you need to motivate this person to cut the tree down. You need a driving force to convince that person in order to make a table you will have to struggle a little bit and cut down this tree. Now this day and age its "reward" or money that motivates people to work.

Imagine the motivational factor was self desire/help instead of money? So in other words, people helping one another with different things would be the motivational driving force.. the fact that it would make them feel better for helping?

So this way people would still work like we are doing today, but instead of money and other tangible items we would work for self-desire.. how cool would that be? But then again do you think people would measure this "self-desire" they work for which could lead to unforeseen problems?

[Spider Pig]

Poverty will always exist, as long as greed exists, man wants to get richer and will do anything to exploit it. I mean wtf are you guna do with a billion pounds?! there should be a limit, a maximum amount of money one can have. Anything over it would be spread into country's suffering from poverty/lack of food etc.

Bill gates alone could solve most of the issue through selling his assets/shares/giving away his cash. There's also many others who could 'chip' in if they wanted, I know these people usually give away millions anyway but as long as someone is starving they aren't giving away enough. The leading power nations would need to come together and agree on a solution. They will come together, but the meeting will most likely be about who has the most money and what weapons they have.

[Zero]

Hmm...this was an essay question in my final Economics exam lol. I still remember most of what I wrote! Hm.

Mindstate, that would never happen, as much as I would like to see it....

What would be the consequences of a cashless world?


Capitalism and communism eradicated.
People would work to make available goods and services at their own free will.
Simply "doing work" not to provide family with income and support, but just to be a better human being.

But people won't do that. What is there to motivate them to do such a thing? Charles Chaplain once said..."Man's humanity to man is greater than his inhumanity to man". Thats true in theory, but in practice there will always exist those that want to control. Its been happening since the beginning of time...when the caveman learnt how to make weapons...he fought. Barbarians roamed and plundered....rulers conquered...and even now theres always going to be that dastardly government intervening and fixing, bailing and the like.We see governments trying to bail out the banks. Why?! Its a capitalist society! This thing is supposed to happen. The strong survive and the weak don't. Yet the government wants to poke its nose into affairs that do not concern them. Well they do actually, but not in the ways that the "general public" see it...

Poverty is a tricky word to define properly though. Theres absolute and relative poverty right? Absolute is when people live on less that $1 a day. Relative poverty are people who live on more, yet they have difficulty in affording everyday things...simply because prices are too high.

That leads on to my argument of exchange rates. Back in the old days, they used to determine how rich a country was by the amount of gold they had. Now a completely different system is used...theres many...but the standard one is they "fix" the currency to strong country's one. Hence a lot of currency's were fixed to the dollar...which is why when america sneezes...the rest of the world gets a cold...

I think that re-evaluation of the exchange rate is one possibility. Make it easier for domestic goods produced by poor countries to sell in the world market. Yet even after so many talks...we have a price restrictions in the EU for foodstuff produced by foreign farmers...we have massive corporations like Tesco ruining poor countries' chances...there needs to be active policies that pave the way for lesser developed countries to enter mainstream markets otherwise most workers will not be able to support their family.

Another point I'd stress is debt...debt is one big poverty trap...The cycle of debt is terrible as you know..because governments have to request more funds to pay off their existing debt..so it goes on and on! So debt forgiveness should play a part. I think Brazil had this major problem in the past...and a lot of debt was "forgiven". At least now they're gettings somewhere.

The most obvious point, have a government that actually thinks about the people. Yet thats like trying to freeze to death in an oven these days...

Population needs to be controlled as well...people should be advised not to keep having kids as it becomes much harder to support a big family..and in a lesser developed country, its going to be hell catering for all of them...

I dunno if theres something we can do. We can do small bits here and there for our own satisfaction...and maybe a small poor family in Zaire (if thats what we choose to support). Its not really going to help the masses though. Another thing we can do? Learn. Read. Educate ourselves. Knowledge is power...and you never know...our later generations might not become world leaders...but they may...just may have power to influence those that sit on the throne...

Theres so many issues that need to be discussed by the world bank and world trade organisation and the G8 countries...but thats all they do isn't it? Discuss until theyre blue in the face...then they fly home and enjoy a bottle of champagne watching big brother...and I'm not talking about the one thats a reality TV show...

[Maya]

Zero... you nailed it...

[Scrooge]

this is quite long, but a very good read... the islamic solution

In order to address the economic system in Islam, we first of all need to clarify the position of Islam in relation to the quest for material well being. This is because the word dunya, which is associated with material wealth or worldly matters has become a dirty word for many Muslims.

The separation of deen from dunya (secularism) is a Western-Christian concept that has recently become widely internalised amongst Muslims. Consequently, seeking to increase in economic or worldly matters is frowned upon, - while continuous engagement in prayer and other personal ibadat is regarded as meritorious. As such, many people get confused and conduct a double life. On the one hand, money talks, it gives status and makes life comfortable, so they seek it vigorously. On the other, they feel guilty, thinking that their effort should be spent on 'religious' duties.
This is due to a misunderstanding of the position of the economic question in Islam. There is no doubt that Islam is opposed to monasticism and views the economic activities of man as quite lawful and sometimes even obligatory and necessary. We find many injunctions in Islam that allude to this. For example, Allah (SWT) says in the Qur'an: 'Disperse through the land and seek the bounty of Allah' (TMQ-62:10), He also says, 'Allah has permitted trade'(TMQ-2:275), And even more directly, Allah(SWT) says: 'Seek the other world by means of that which Allah has bestowed upon you, and do not be negligent about your share in this world.' (TMQ-28:77) These are all in reference to economic activity.

In the sunnah, we find that one of the most commonly said du'as that the Prophet(SAW) taught us is: 'our lord give us the good in this life and the good in the hereafter'.

But despite this, we find expressions in the Qur'an which state: 'The life of this world is but a delusion' -3:185 ; 'The mutual rivalry for piling up the good things of this world diverts you from the more serious things. - 102:1; and many others, stating that man has lust and greed for wealth(89:20) and that he is violent at this greed (100:8) and that he becomes boastfull and proud (11:10) and so on.
This apparently sounds like a contradiction in terms. But actually, what we are taught by Islam is that the real objective of our existence is to worship Allah(SWT) through righteous conducts by living as humans in this world. So all those things that are necessary for this life become essential for man. It is one thing to say that material well being is important and even compulsory but it is quite another to say that it is the ultimate goal and centre of thought and action in life. This is where the confusion arises about the Islamic economic question. The fundamental difference between Islamic economics and all materialist ones is precisely this. The materialists view that economic well being is the ultimate end of human life, while Islam says that these things may be necessary and indispensable, but cannot be the true purpose of life. Economic endeavours only become an allurement or delusion if man loses sight of his real purpose in their pursuit.

The right path to follow therefore is to fully engage into worldly economic life in the manner prescribed by Allah(SWT) and His Prophet(SAW), both at societal and individual level. The prophet said: 'Work for your worldly life as you were going to live forever, but work for the life to come as if you were going to die tomorrow.'

The economic problem in Islam.

Unlike the current world view as pushed by the capitalist west, Islam considers that the main economic problem that mankind will ever have is that of distribution of wealth and not of production. In the eyes of the capitalist West, there is relative scarcity of resources available in the world, and peoples demands for these resources are endless. Hence each nation and in fact the world should concentrate on more and more production. The higher the amount of wealth produced, the higher the number of people that will satisfy their demands through the process of economic activity.

Islam distinguishes between basic needs which include food, clothing and shelter, and luxurious wants which includes all those things that are not necessities in life. It views that there are enough resources to satisfy the basic needs of all people all the time and to satisfy some of the luxurious wants of people and that economic problem is that of distribution and not production. There are enough resources to feed, clothe and house everybody in the world fully as can be seen by the food mountains of Europe and the excesses of the few rich in each country, including the 3rd world countries. In accordance with their capitalist philosophy of maximising profit, we find governments paying farmers to produce less as in the EC countries, or to destroy what has already been produced as happened in poor Latin America where a huge amount of coffee was burnt. Far more wealth leaves the poor countries of Africa for the rich West than vice versa due to unjust economic deals. Even at the height of the Ethiopean famine crises in the late eighties, the country was exporting millions of dollars worth of resources to the West.

Allah (SWT) says in the Quran, 'It is Allah who created the heavens and the earth, and sent down from heaven water wherewith He brought forth fruits to be your sustenance. And He subjected to you the sea at His commandment; and He subjected to you the rivers and He subjected to you the sun and the moon constant upon their courses, and He subjected to you the night and the day, and gave you of all that you asked Him. If you count Allah's blessing, you will never number it; surely man is sinful, unthankful. (4:32-34). In another verse He says: 'Verily, thy lord doth provide sustenance in abundance for whom He pleases and He straiten it, for He doth know and regard all his creatures.' (17:30). These verses among many others show that Allah(SWT) has pooled in this universe all the needs and beneficial things for man, and has provided sufficient resources to satisfy material need of man.

In Islam, a distinction is made between economic science, which is to do with the means of production and economic system is concerned with the problem of distribution of wealth, namely the rules by which wealth can be acquired, used and disposed of. It is through the economic system that is specific to Islam that wealth is distributed equitably, while economic science is not particularly specific to Islam as such but can be acquired from any other people or developed as seen fit.

Objectives of the Islamic economic system

The objectives of the Islamic economic system can be classified as follows:
1) To satisfy the basic needs of each and every individual in the Islamic state completely
2) To provide the citizens of the Islamic state with the means to satisfy their luxurious needs
3) To achieve 1) and 2) through a naturally workable system with due incentives for economic activity and an equitable system of distribution.

Principles and policies to achieve the objectives

1) Ownership.

Ownership constitutes one of the important incentives for engaging into economic activity as the owner of wealth has the right to use or dispose of it. The means of acquiring such rights is one of the fundamental principles through which the objectives of the Islamic economic system are achieved.

In the Islamic economic system, it is understood that the real owner(Creator) of all wealth is Allah(SWT). We only 'own' wealth by proxy as guardians. Some of us acquire wealth by engaging in the production process and hence have a direct access to wealth. These include the factors of production as defined by Islam. Others have an indirect access to wealth simply because Allah(SWT) as the real owner of wealth has stipulated that those with direct access to wealth through engagement in the production process must pass some of it on to them as He made clear in the Qur'an: 'Give to them from the property of Allah(SWT) which He has bestowed upon you.' 24:33. This usually takes the form of Zakat, kaffarat, sadaqat-ul-fitr, inheritance, etc. which are given to the poor, the needy and later generations. It is the duty of the government to ensure that such wealth is duly transferred by law.
Notwithstanding this, Islam does not impose a limit on the amount of wealth that one can own. Rather, it controls the means of ownership such that people acquire the right to wealth in a just manner. This excludes speculation, forward transactions, lottery, and dealing with interest among other things.

Additionally, Islam also stipulates in accordance to the ahadith of the prophet(SAW) that certain properties are to be collectively owned for the use of all citizens. These include sources of energy, pastures and natural resources including water.
Through these ownership principles, Islam ensures that everyone gets what is rightfully due to him from his creator, unlike the capitalist system where only those who take part in the production process have the right to wealth. At the same time, it gives full incentives to individuals to fully participate in the economy by not imposing a limit on how much they can own.

2) Economic enterprises and the prohibition of interest and hoarding
Interest rates form the backbone of the capitalist system in many ways. It is used as a tool to regulate economic growth and monetary supply by acting as an 'incentive' for those who have surplus money to save/hoard. In Islam both interest and hoarding are prohibited. Allah(SWT) says in the Qur'an: 'And those who hoard up gold and silver and do not spend in the way of Allah, announce to them a painful chastisement. (9:34). He also says: 'Allah has permitted trade and forbidden interest.' (2:275). Owners of capital therefore have to invest it either in the form of private business or partnership.

The most fundamental criteria that must be met by all companies of partnership are that there must be offer and acceptance between two or more parties, and that once they become partners they have equal say in the running of the company. In addition to these criteria, the manner of sharing profit and loss is dependent on the type of company. In the Company of Equals (Anan) where partnership is formed by the wealth of two or more parties, any loss suffered by the company would be shared among the partners in proportion to the capital they put. In the Company of Persons (Abdan) where partnership is based on services provided by the partners, loss is shared according to the salaries/wages of the partners. In the company of Mudharaba where partnership is based on capital from one party and labour from another, loss is incurred by the owner of capital while the provider of labour loses their wage/salary. From these elementary rules and structures, many other forms of companies can be formed. In all cases, profit is shared according to mutual agreement independent of the amount of capital or service/labour provided.
Through this arrangement, continuous business investment keeps employment level high and both the rich and the poor get richer.

The role of the state

The government plays an important role in the economic system of Islam.
Islam makes it the responsibility of the state to provide food, clothing, shelter,education, health and security to every individual. It is also the responsibility of the state to enable citizens with the means of getting luxurious needs in addition to these basic needs by themselves. The state achieves this through the management of public property , through the use of income from other sources and through provision of good economic environment so that people satisfy their needs due to their involvement in economic activity.

Sources of revenue for the state

1) Taxation

Fai - Property captured from the enemy without fighting
Ghanima - Booty
Ushr - Land Tax on unconquered land
Kharaj - Land Tax on conquered land
Jizya - Head-tax on non-Muslims

2) Others

- Revenues from natural resources
- Fines levied

3) Facilitating luxurious needs

It is also the responsibility of the state to provide adequate infrastructure for the supply of such commodities to the people.

The most fundamental aims of the economy of any nation is to provide adequate supply of goods and services for its citizens and to enable each citizen to acquire and use them to raise their standard of living. This requires that wealth be created in the form of usable goods and services and that people get the means of owning and/or using these goods or services.

The degree to which these aims and objectives are met and the efficiency with which the citizens of the state participate depends on the specific rules of engagement, namely the economic system which the nation implements.
Apart from the general ideological framework upon which the economic system is based, the key ingredients for the economic success of any nation include:

1) Confidence in and stability of the system
2) Workability of the system by providing appropriate economic incentives for wealth creation and distribution
3) A just method of distribution.
Although only the capitalist economic system is practised in the world today, the Islamic economic system gives the best rules of engagement in economic activity and would be the most successful towards raising the standard of living of any nation.

a) On confidence and stability
Economic activity by its very nature is risky as those who partake in it directly can gain or lose wealth. Hence in all economic systems, there is always an understanding by those who participate that they may lose their capital or effort . However, there other phenomena that adversely affect the economic life of a nation by artificially creating an atmosphere of insecurity, and thereby reduce the level of economic activity. These arise because of the specific economic system implemented and include the followings:

i) Booms and Busts: In the capitalist system, periods of good and bad trade have become evident from the records. Although opinions differ widely among economists on the conditions responsible for trade fluctuations, a common feature is that root cause of these conditions stems from the foundations of the capitalist economic system.
ii) Runaway inflation: The fact that money continually loses its value has become an intrinsic part of capitalist economies. Here again there are quite a few opinions from economists as to what causes runaway inflation. But the recipe for runaway inflation lies at the heart of established financial controls in the capitalist system.
iii) Money market crashes: These occur irregularly in the form of sudden exaggerated changes in foreign exchange rates and sudden fall in share prices.

The most fundamental characteristics of the capitalist economic system which form the root of these phenomena are speculation and false representation. These are manifested in :

The artificial creation of money: There is nothing to prevent governments from literally creating money at will. Excessive creation of paper money which cannot be represented by real wealth is the root cause of inflation.

In addition, high street banks can lend money that is not existent by crediting peoples accounts on paper. This is false representation that is meant to keep the system going actually creates more artificial money.

In conclusion, the above points clearly outline certain fundamental differences between the capitalist economic system and the Islamic economic system. The inherent failing of capitalist economies can be seen today throughout the world, even in the Muslim countries, where it has been forcibly applied by corrupt rulers. The details of Islamic economics should fill us with confidence that Islam provides solutions to the ‘economic’ problem’, which the world around us currently faces.

[mindstate]

first things first... "how did poverty begin?"

well, first of all, before there was any wealth (in the economic definition of the word), there was NO wealth... so basically, at some time, everyone was more or less at square one.
so, when was that? weeell, besides the fact that it really never was at *all,* as far back as human civilization goes, it was so far back we don't know when.

poverty began before the economics of today even existed. the "caste" system of India today, used to be a worldwide phenomenon, and to some extent still is. This is where the roots of poverty are to be found. in Europe, this materialized as the feudal system of government, with the king on top (under god as they say) and other nobles under, and then others following that (a sort of pyramid system). the racism that europeans at one time stood for, slavery and all that, was just another outgrowth of this "caste" feudal system, where peoples "worth" for this system could be clearly measured. So everyone knew where they stood in society, no way a farm boy would dream of becoming a king or working close to the king in those days. and the extension to also ranking other peoples after this ranking system, was not hard to make. especially since it allowed the "downtrodden" underclass to have someone STILL farther down on the ladder, compared to themselves. poverty is just a mind state, in simple terms.

i could write longer on this, but suffice it to say that this VERY way of thinking, the idea of "ranking" peoples worth in a society (where the ruler and the ruling class of course are at the very top of that rank), is at the root of the poverty problem itself. AND IT EVEN IS RELATED TO MUCH OF WHAT WE CALL RACISM AS WELL. if we go into the "deeper" history of all this, that is. so all of it is a sort of "intertwined" complex of issues and problems.

the way to try to change this is, number one, to instill the belief in ALL people globally that no starving kid in Sudan, India or wherever has less INHERENT WORTH as a human being than the king of a european nation (or highest caste of India), or a president, Forbes 500 CEO, or whatever. (((Another problem concerns socio-economic position (i.e. if you're poor or well-off in society where you live), but it is in reality just another version of the very same problem that India has with its caste system! Western nations have a "unofficial" caste system as well!)))
of course making us all think like that won't eradicate poverty or even cause any significant change at all, but its a start, and a needed start because *the beliefs that surround race/origin or socio-economic position of anyone in society, continuously re-invigorates the negative aspects of these beliefs *in reality.*

what did i say in that sentence above? well, point is that our BELIEFS are shaping (our) reality, instead of truth doing so. BE*LIE*FS that has a ugly tendency to be wrong, judgemental, based on prejudice, and so on and so forth. when we combine these beliefs with a "caste" system that most of the world has practiced for centuries now, it's no big surprise that the end results are pretty dismal.

money isn't real and those who are motivated by it should open their eyes.

phew! longest post i ever made on AF i think ; ) ; )