Why Don't / Why Do you believe in God?

[zanjeer]

Originally Posted by MiSs The Holy Quran mentioned that there is a barrier between two seas that meet and that they do not transgress. God has said: He has set free the two seas meeting together. There is a barrier between them. They do not transgress. (Quran, 55:19-20) But when the Quran speaks about the divider between fresh and salt water, it mentions the existence of “a forbidding partition” with the barrier. God has said in the Quran: He is the one who has set free the two kinds of water, one sweet and palatable, and the other salty and bitter. And He has made between them a barrier and a forbidding partition. This partition (zone of separation) has a different salinity from the fresh water and from the salt water. This information has been discovered only recently, using advanced equipment to measure temperature, salinity, density, oxygen dissolubility, etc. The human eye cannot see the difference between the two seas that meet, rather the two seas appear to us as one homogeneous sea. Likewise, the human eye cannot see the division of water in estuaries into the three kinds: fresh water, salt water, and the partition (zone of separation). BUT. this same information is also in the "QURAN" and were written before any of these were discovered, thousands of years later.

With all due respect, I can't believe people fall for this nonsense.

Lemme break it down for you:

In 7th century Arabia, everyone knew that the water of the sea tasted salty and the water of the rivers tastes sweeter.

This is something that everyone knew.

You only had to taste the water to know this. The Quran is stating the obvious. People knew this more in 7th century Arabia than they do today cuz in those days people got their water from rivers and seas, whereas nowdays we just get it from our taps at home.

So what is so miraculous about stating the obvious?

The Quran mentions nothing about the temperature, salinity, density, or oxygen dissolubility of the water.

The Quran is merely talking about two bodies of water, one which is sweet and one which is salty. You don't require any "advanced equipment" to know this, you only need to taste the stuff!

[zanjeer]

Scrooge shall we create a separate thread to discuss the issue of wife-beating in Islam?
There are far too many issues being discussed in here so I think we should dedicate a whole thread to that topic.

Just gimme the go ahead and I'll be happy to refute your baqwaas...

[Scrooge]

Originally Posted by zanjeer Scrooge shall we create a separate thread to discuss the issue of wife-beating in Islam? There are far too many issues being discussed in here so I think we should dedicate a whole thread to that topic. Just gimme the go ahead and I'll be happy to refute your baqwaas...

whats the difference from posting in here then anywhere else, u'l get the same response.

baqwaas?

the same baqwaas i read when i have to go through your crap, but chulo lets not get petty.

i dont just want answers for the hadiths and stuff, i want answers for the domestic violence, the facts i have put up, the values u hold nd how they are contradictory to say the least.

[Scrooge]

like i said before, u want a debate with me, lets do it via PM... that way no distractions, one on one...

[Ranj]

Originally Posted by incredible Ranj I am sorry it came out that way. I wasn't trying to say that. I was just responding to Ras B's comments in reagrds to the dates, hygiene issues. Now since the negativity was directed towards Islam, I responded in that manner. If it was any other religion, I probably would have done the same.

Cool, glad that's sorted.

Originally Posted by Scrooge how was it ignorant?

I agree with True Story.

Scrooge you’re being a little hypocritical with your comments in regards to the ‘domestic violence and rights of women’. Now Zanjeer seems to be presenting Islam in a negative light for the most part, but isn’t that exactly what your doing in regards to western society?

I think you both need to realise that domestic violence and women's rights is an issue that affects ALL races and religions, it is not predisposed to one group of people. There are many individuals who live in a western or non western country who come from various backgrounds and they might label themselves a Muslim, a Sikh, a Christian etc, but they still might objectify women, they still might see that women aren’t equal to them simply because we don’t have a penis.

Fair enough something might be put into law or a scripture but whether it is actually practised is another thing.

[zanjeer]

Originally Posted by Ranj I think you both need to realise that domestic violence and women's rights is an issue that affects ALL races and religions, it is not predisposed to one group of people.

You're right. Domestic violence occurs in EVERY country.

BUT

The big difference is that domestic violence in Western society (or any other civilised society) is a crime.

On the other hand, hitting your wife in Islam is sanctioned. It states quite clearly in the Quran, and Muhammad did it himself.

I'm not saying that all Muslims beat their wife (that would be stupid). I'm merely saying that Islam sanctions it.

Muslim apologists can sugarcoat it as much as they want, but the truth is evident.

When I get time I will create a whole thread to discuss this topic (which I am well informed about).

Brother Scrooge isn't as knowledgable as some of you think. His posts consist of the typical copy/paste jobs from various website (some which contradict each other), and then he just adds his own fallacious arguments for good measure, which usually revolve around criticising the immoral actions of random people like Josef Fritzl or Amy Winehouse or whoever (as if I'm defending people like them ).

[Ranj]

Well to be honest, I don't want to get involved in this. I'm not Muslim and I've never studied the Islamic faith, so I'm not going to pass remarks. I think I'll just stay out!

Just my opinion though, this whole debate is getting a bit ridiculous and quite frankly I don’t think it’s going to achieve anything! Why don’t you guys try and find a common ground and go from there, instead of simply copying and pasting quotes?

[MiSs]

Originally Posted by zanjeer With all due respect, I can't believe people fall for this nonsense. Lemme break it down for you: In 7th century Arabia, everyone knew that the water of the sea tasted salty and the water of the rivers tastes sweeter. This is something that everyone knew. You only had to taste the water to know this. The Quran is stating the obvious. People knew this more in 7th century Arabia than they do today cuz in those days people got their water from rivers and seas, whereas nowdays we just get it from our taps at home. So what is so miraculous about stating the obvious? The Quran mentions nothing about the temperature, salinity, density, or oxygen dissolubility of the water. The Quran is merely talking about two bodies of water, one which is sweet and one which is salty. You don't require any "advanced equipment" to know this, you only need to taste the stuff!

hats off to you

there is actually more to this, but I didnt have time to include a 50 page essay when I did it, so kept it short.

what about everything else in that particular post?

why do you only quote the replies that you can some how twist an answer to?
what about the rest of the stuff I mentioned?

[Scrooge]

Originally Posted by Ranj Cool, glad that's sorted. I agree with True Story. Scrooge you’re being a little hypocritical with your comments in regards to the ‘domestic violence and rights of women’. Now Zanjeer seems to be presenting Islam in a negative light for the most part, but isn’t that exactly what your doing in regards to western society? I think you both need to realise that domestic violence and women's rights is an issue that affects ALL races and religions, it is not predisposed to one group of people. There are many individuals who live in a western or non western country who come from various backgrounds and they might label themselves a Muslim, a Sikh, a Christian etc, but they still might objectify women, they still might see that women aren’t equal to them simply because we don’t have a penis. Fair enough something might be put into law or a scripture but whether it is actually practised is another thing.

i dont think any of you have read my post properly. iv tried to make a clear distinction between how islam honours the woman, iv posted the FULL hadith nd refuted his claims. there is a problem in todays society and if you people want to be ignorant to that fact, then thats your choice, but i have merely pointed out the problems.

im not being hypocritical at all. the fact is he has misconceptions, where as i have proposed facts, thats the difference.

i have only highlighted the FACTS of what is happening in this society and he has not bothered refuting my claims.

i gave him a straight forward enough question.

[Scrooge]

Originally Posted by zanjeer You're right. Domestic violence occurs in EVERY country. BUT The big difference is that domestic violence in Western society (or any other civilised society) is a crime. On the other hand, hitting your wife in Islam is sanctioned. It states quite clearly in the Quran, and Muhammad did it himself. I'm not saying that all Muslims beat their wife (that would be stupid). I'm merely saying that Islam sanctions it. Muslim apologists can sugarcoat it as much as they want, but the truth is evident. When I get time I will create a whole thread to discuss this topic (which I am well informed about). Brother Scrooge isn't as knowledgable as some of you think. His posts consist of the typical copy/paste jobs from various website (some which contradict each other), and then he just adds his own fallacious arguments for good measure, which usually revolve around criticising the immoral actions of random people like Josef Fritzl or Amy Winehouse or whoever (as if I'm defending people like them ).

LMAO.

i dont post to look good, or to get recognised, i do it coz it needs to be done. see how the debate has turned from the actual debate to the pettiness of attacking the poster haha.

its a crime, but why does it happen over and over again? what is the root problem of this? its pretty simple.

random people? lol pick up a newspaper and you will find constant crap about the celebs u look up to, the same people that hold the same values as yourself. prisons are full of rapists, drug fiends, paedophiles, murderers.

lol your ignorant to your own values, how can i even take you seriously

[Ranj]

Originally Posted by Scrooge i dont think any of you have read my post properly. iv tried to make a clear distinction between how islam honours the woman, iv posted the FULL hadith nd refuted his claims. there is a problem in todays society and if you people want to be ignorant to that fact, then thats your choice, but i have merely pointed out the problems. im not being hypocritical at all. the fact is he has misconceptions, where as i have proposed facts, thats the difference. i have only highlighted the FACTS of what is happening in this society and he has not bothered refuting my claims. i gave him a straight forward enough question.

Scrooge, nobody is disputing the facts you posted, but my point to you is do you acknowledge the fact that domestic violence and women's rights are issues that affect all races and religions, that no one group is except from it?

[Scrooge]

Originally Posted by Ranj Scrooge, nobody is disputing the facts you posted, but my point to you is do you acknowledge the fact that domestic violence and women's rights are issues that affect all races and religions, that no one group is except from it?

no denying it does happen

my simple question is, why does it happen? what is the core root problem for it happening?

[incredible]

Okay think I need to step back in here ......seen as I know my stuff lol

Ranj all i am doing is defending a religion which I happen to believe in. Ife he can question my religion, beliefs I think it's only fair if he can answer my questions in regards to his beliefs.

I believe he is only here to talk Islam down. if he was here to better his knowledge, he could easily take Scrooge's offer and talk to him in PM, without the 'distractions' he is seeming to suferr from. I say this because it's quite evident that Scrooge probably has more knoweldge of Islam than all of us. That includes Zanjeer (who simply knows crap that is posted on Anti-Islamic sites).

Anyways Zanjeer my son, I have not said if you believe in God you need to follow a religion. What I am asking you is, it's evident you believe in god... what do you think think the purpose of God is? why are you sure God exists? I know God exists because of the Quran, but what makes you so sure God exists? and what is his purpose?

When you die, I want to know more about that. What do you believe that will happen to you? I am talking about life after death.

[zanjeer]

Originally Posted by hadith i dont think any of you have read my post properly. iv tried to make a clear distinction between how islam honours the woman, iv posted the FULL hadith nd refuted his claims.

Lol. You silly boy.

You haven't quoted a "hadith" at all.

The only references you've quoted are this:

Originally Posted by Scrooge As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them [first]. [Next], refuse to share their beds, [And last] beat them [lightly]; but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, Great [Above you all]. (Surat An-Nisaa’ 4:34)

and this:

Originally Posted by Scrooge below is the whole hadith, not just a specific bit of the hadith as highlighted by zanjeer Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more strength than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient and guard in the husband’s absence what Allah would have them to guard. As to those women on whose part you fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (next), refuse to share their beds, (and last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them means (of annoyance); for Allah is most High and Great (above you all). If you fear a breach between them twain, appoint (two) arbiters, one from his family and the other from hers. If they wish for peace, Allah will cause their reconciliation; for Allah has full knowledge and is acquainted with all things. (An-Nisaa’ 4:34-35

Why do you keep refering to them as "hadith"?

They are not "hadith" at all. What you just quoted is sura 4 ayah 34 from the Quran.

Do you know what a hadith is?

I know that copy/pasting from internet sites doesn't require much knowledge, but you should at least know the difference between a hadith and a Quranic ayah.


I also notice that the translation you quoted above has the word "lightly" in brackets after "beat them" (which I've highlighted).

You're showing your dishonesty again. The word "lightly" doesn't exist in the original arabic of the Quran. It was added in by either YOU, or a dishonest translator who was trying to sugarcoat this verse.

Here is an urdu translation of that verse for those of you who can read urdu:



I've underlined the important bit. It says:

Aur inhe bistaroon mein alag chor do...... (and leave them alone in their beds).

Aur inhe maaro...... (and beat them).

[zanjeer]

Originally Posted by incredible I believe he is only here to talk Islam down. if he was here to better his knowledge, he could easily take Scrooge's offer and talk to him in PM, without the 'distractions' he is seeming to suferr from. I say this because it's quite evident that Scrooge probably has more knoweldge of Islam than all of us. That includes Zanjeer (who simply knows crap that is posted on Anti-Islamic sites).

If you had some knowledge yourself then you'd realise how pathetic Scrooges "knowledge" is.

I can give you the exact websites that he copied/pastes his posts from.

Can you do that to any of my posts? No you can't. Because all of my posts are my own handiwork and they're all written by myself because I have the knowledge.

If Scrooge had knowledge then he'd post using his own words.

Scrooge defends the fact that Islam sanctions wife-hitting/beating by mentioning that domestic violence occurs in Western society.

Surely you should be able to see the huge logical fallacy in his argument?

Originally Posted by incredible Anyways Zanjeer my son, I have not said if you believe in God you need to follow a religion. What I am asking you is, it's evident you believe in god... what do you think think the purpose of God is? why are you sure God exists? I know God exists because of the Quran, but what makes you so sure God exists? and what is his purpose?

Wtf. Do you know what a "belief" is?

A "beleif" doesn't require proof. If I had proof of Gods existence then it wouldn't be a "belief". It would be a fact.

And can you explain how the hell the Quran is proof of God existence?

I'll reply to the rest of your post in a bit...