Why Don't / Why Do you believe in God?

[M4RN1]

Quran is such that you cannot take full comprehending just by looking at its text. Each ayah has a deeper meaning to it which takes years to study. An ayah is linked to hadith fiqh usool and the teachings of the sahabah.

Zanjeer can you find out for me what is the deailed text for the verse 'and hit them'.
Im hundred and one percent its along the lines of that when you hit them its no longer than a miswak nor thicker than one and harder than one and you cannot full swing.

why single Islam out when there is plenty of verses from other biblical books about opression on women which is encouraged even strongly. A little hit is the last of all resorts.

Copral punishments like whipping, even that has limits ie no full swings.


If the quran says or hadith say that the hand of god is upon the group. do we take the literal meaning or is metaphorical?
many examples where you need knowledge to understand the quran and not take the meaning to your own understanding.

[zanjeer]

Originally Posted by Scrooge This verse again has been greatly misconceived. Many people take it to allow wife beating, but this is not a correct interpretation of the verse. Islam is a whole system, so you cannot isolate one point without considering all other related issues. When the setting is not taken into account, it distorts and falsifies the original meaning. should also keep in mind that the original Arabic wording of the Qur’an is the only authentic source of meaning. If one relies on the translation alone, one is likely to misunderstand it

Was that written by you Scrooge with your great "knowledge"?

I managed to locate where you copy/pasted that from... http://community.beliefnet.com/?page...5&group_id=184

Scroll down that link about 1/4 of the way down... where it says This verse has been greatly misconceived.

Word for word copy/pasting at it's best.

[zanjeer]

Originally Posted by M4RN1 Quran is such that you cannot take full comprehending just by looking at its text. Each ayah has a deeper meaning to it which takes years to study.

What do you mean by "full comprehending"? Or "deeper meaning"? Isn't the Quran supposed to be a clear guidance for mankind? Is Allah trying to confuse us?

So when the Quran says "beat them"... does it actually mean that you should hug them? Or kiss them? Or tickle them? Or buy them a diamond ring?

No.

When the Quran says "beat them"... it means "beat them".

Originally Posted by M4RN1 An ayah is linked to hadith fiqh usool and the teachings of the sahabah.

Yes I know that.

Originally Posted by M4RN1 Zanjeer can you find out for me what is the deailed text for the verse 'and hit them'. Im hundred and one percent its along the lines of that when you hit them its no longer than a miswak nor thicker than one and harder than one and you cannot full swing.

If you're hundred and one percent sure then can you show me some evidence please?

Where is the evidence that you should only hit them with a miswak or whatever?

Can you show me?

From the Quran or hadith? (preferably Bukhari or Muslim).

?????

Originally Posted by M4RN1 why single Islam out when there is plenty of verses from other biblical books about opression on women which is encouraged even strongly. A little hit is the last of all resorts.

I would say the same things about any immoral teachings in Christianity, but the discussions on this forum are about Islam and I am responding accordingly.

[M4RN1]

Discussion is about God not Islam only. I dont know why people of other faith do not discuss their beliefs and evidence of their book and god/gods.

I could easily go to any website and copy and paste which scrooge does and it will be challenged that it's from the internet.

Quran does not confuse people it's clear as crystal. People only confuse themselves meaning they will only intepret a meaning to their own needs and temptations.
If people can extract verses from the quran and prove that homosexuality is legal so it could suit their own lifestyle and needs basically it could be done with every ayah. a time has come where people just interpret how they see fit.

people hav said alcohol/music/homosexuality/marrying 22 wives are all legal and it's in the quran. If man has confused his ownself by using the maning to his own needs, a discussion with such people are needless and pointless and God give them true guidance.

[True Story]

Originally Posted by Scrooge how was it ignorant?

because of the silly generalisations and assumptions you made.

LOL this society, the woman has to be the 'career' woman, neglect her children whilst shes out to be a equal LMAO. if the woman asked her husband to for the earnings she'd probably be the next on the domestic violence stat.

You seem to be suggesting that in this society a woman "has to be the career woman" as if they are forced into it. That is just completely untrue, i think you'll find that they want to work, they WANT a career, no one is forcing them to do it.

And then you go on to say that by having a career they neglect their children. Thats just a very stupid thing to say. Do you really think all the mothers who have jobs neglect their children?? I know from experience, because my mother had a career throughout my childhood, that she was fully capable of taking care of her children at the same time as working on her career, and I'm sure many of the career women you seem to be slating are also capable of taking care of their families and their careers.

And that is why your comment was ignorant. If you really believe that women who have jobs/careers are incapable of taking proper care of their families as well, then i'm afraid you are just completely mistaken.

[mindstate]

this is basically how you say it all happened?

http://s162.photobucket.com/albums/t...igBang-340.flv

[Maya]

Zanjeer, have you ever read commentaries of Islam and the Prophet (pbuh) by Intellectuals? let me 'copy and paste' some very interesting points of view for you... I presume you have heard of Mahatma Gandhi and George Bernard Shaw...

"I wanted to know the best of one who holds today undisputed sway over the hearts of millions of mankind ... I became more than convinced that it was not the sword that won a place for Islam in those days in the scheme of life. It was the rigid simplicity, the utter self-effacement of the Prophet, the scrupulous regard for his pledges, his intense devotion to his friends and followers, his intrepidity, his fearlessness, his absolute trust in God and in his own mission. These and not the sword carried everything before them and surmounted every obstacle. When I closed the 2nd volume (of the prophet's biography), I was sorry there was not more for me to read of the great life." - Mahatma Gandhi

"I have always held the religion of Muhammad in high estimation because of its wonderful vitality. It is the only religion which appears to me to possess that assimilating capacity to the changing phase of existence which can make itself appeal to every age. I have studied him - the wonderful man and in my opinion far from being an anti-Christ, he must be called the Saviour of Humanity. I believe that if a man like him were to assume the dictatorship of the modern world, he would succeed in solving its problems in a way that would bring it the much needed peace and happiness: I have prophesied about the faith of Muhammad that it would be acceptable to the Europe of tomorrow as it is beginning to be acceptable to the Europe of today." -George Bernard Shaw

It's reassuring to know that there are non-muslims out there who are 'intellectual' enough to see islam for what it really is.

[Scrooge]

Originally Posted by zanjeer Was that written by you Scrooge with your great "knowledge"? I managed to locate where you copy/pasted that from... Beliefnet - View Post Scroll down that link about 1/4 of the way down... where it says This verse has been greatly misconceived. Word for word copy/pasting at it's best.

LOL nowhere have i said, i have great knowledge, im no islamic scholar, but what i do know i will say.

great u found a link the same words were written, but what difference has it made? your argument has still been refuted. you are slowly starting to move away from the discussion nd more attacking the way i post then actually refuting anything i have posted.

your vey persistent in selecting a few paragraphs from a post, but why dont u answer what i have written in the last few posts of mine, regarding domestic violence nd so forth.

[zanjeer]

Apologies for my absence, but I'm back now.

Where was I in this thread? Oh yeh I was responding to all of the copy/paste jobs.

I feel like I’m single handedly playing tennis with several people at the same time in this thread. You’re all firing tennis balls at me through a tennis ball machine (ie your copy/paste jobs), and I’m firing them back at you with my racket and skill and knowledge.

[zanjeer]

Originally Posted by Scrooge LOL nowhere have i said, i have great knowledge, im no islamic scholar, but what i do know i will say. great u found a link the same words were written, but what difference has it made? your argument has still been refuted. you are slowly starting to move away from the discussion nd more attacking the way i post then actually refuting anything i have posted.

Putting “LOL” at the beginning of all your posts doesn’t hide your humiliation. I know you’re just trying to put on a brave face, but it just makes you seem pagal.

I have exposed all of your baqwaas arguments. You have refuted nothing. Do you know what the hell "refute" means? Did you just learn that word recently, and now you decided to use it without fully knowing what it means?

Mentioning the ills of Western society doesn't "refute" the fact that the Quran sanctions wife-beating. Domestic violence occurs everywhere (much more in Islamic countries), and whatever happens in western society is irrelevant, because the Quran STILL sanctions wife-beating... and nothing you say can "refute" that.

Then you tried to put the word “lightly” in the Quranic verse, but I exposed that too, and I exposed your lack of knowledge of ayahs and hadith, and your copy/paste jobbies. So it looks like you’re stumped.

Now you’re just trying to turn this whole issue into a “who’s society is worse” debate.
If I wanted to stoop to your level then I could list all of the crimes and all of the ills of Islamic countries, but I’m not gonna do that. I could talk about all of the domestic violence, killings, stoning to deaths, acid attacks, robberies, illiteracy, shootings etc in Islamic countries, but I’m not gonna do that. I could mention the fact that Muslims make up 3% of the UK population, but they make up 11% of the UK prision population. Trust me I could have a FIELD DAY, but I’m not gonna go down that road.

Your stupidity is beyond belief. If you were a defence lawyer and you were defending a wife-beater, then your defence would probably be something like…. “Oh what about Amy Winehouse? What about Josef Fritzl? What about Hitler? What about my next door neighbour who’s a crackhead? What about Harold Shipman?.... and you’d expect the wife-beater to be acquitted by the judge.

[zanjeer]

Originally Posted by MiSs Or (the unbelievers’ state) is like the darkness in a deep sea. It is covered by waves, above which are waves, above which are clouds. Darknesses, one above another. If a man stretches out his hand, he cannot see it.... Quran, 24:40 This verse mentions the darkness found in deep seas and oceans, where if a man stretches out his hand, he cannot see it. The darkness in deep seas and oceans is found around a depth of 200 meters and below. At this depth, there is almost no light. Below a depth of 1000 meters there is no light at all back then. people didnt have submarines (just horses and camels but they doubt they can swim let alone dive) or special equipment to be able to go forty meters under sea. so how would they know whether there was light under there or if they could see?

What’s so miraculous about this? Seriously MiSs I would advise you to not be so gullible.

Does the Quran say that darkness is found at 200m? No it doesn’t.
Does the Quran say that at 1000m there is no light at all? No it doesn’t.

The Quran merely says that the IS darkness in the deep sea (but it doesn’t say how dark, or at what depth).

Sea water is dirty. You only have to dunk your head into the sea a couple of feet to experience some darkness. You don’t need submarines to know that it’s dark down there. Infact you can tell just by looking at it from above. The next time you stand over the river Thames, have a look.



The Quran was written in the 7th century. That was only 1400 years ago.

It was written 1000 after the Persian Empire began.
It was written 700 years after the start of the Roman Empire which spread all across Europe and North Africa, where they made numerous voyages across the Mediterranean Sea.
It was written 4500 years after the Egyptians were sailing around the Mediterranean Sea and River Nile.
It was written 5000 years after the Greeks were diving in the sea. This was a method used by ancient civilizations to help them fish for food.
Are you telling me that something as simple as the “darkness under the sea” couldn’t have been said by the average man in the 7th century?

These stupid Islamic pseudo-scientists should go out and get a real job.

[zanjeer]

Originally Posted by Maya Zanjeer, have you ever read commentaries of Islam and the Prophet (pbuh) by Intellectuals? let me 'copy and paste' some very interesting points of view for you... I presume you have heard of Mahatma Gandhi and George Bernard Shaw... "I wanted to know the best of one who holds today undisputed sway over the hearts of millions of mankind ... I became more than convinced that it was not the sword that won a place for Islam in those days in the scheme of life. It was the rigid simplicity, the utter self-effacement of the Prophet, the scrupulous regard for his pledges, his intense devotion to his friends and followers, his intrepidity, his fearlessness, his absolute trust in God and in his own mission. These and not the sword carried everything before them and surmounted every obstacle. When I closed the 2nd volume (of the prophet's biography), I was sorry there was not more for me to read of the great life." - Mahatma Gandhi "I have always held the religion of Muhammad in high estimation because of its wonderful vitality. It is the only religion which appears to me to possess that assimilating capacity to the changing phase of existence which can make itself appeal to every age. I have studied him - the wonderful man and in my opinion far from being an anti-Christ, he must be called the Saviour of Humanity. I believe that if a man like him were to assume the dictatorship of the modern world, he would succeed in solving its problems in a way that would bring it the much needed peace and happiness: I have prophesied about the faith of Muhammad that it would be acceptable to the Europe of tomorrow as it is beginning to be acceptable to the Europe of today." -George Bernard Shaw It's reassuring to know that there are non-muslims out there who are 'intellectual' enough to see islam for what it really is.

I don't care what Gandhi or that other fellow (whoever he is) said.

I can show you quotes from people who praise Muhammad, and quotes people who criticise him. Why should we believe one over the other?

Here's another quote from Gandhi. When someone asked him if he was a Hindu, his reply was:

Yes I am, I am also a Muslim, a Christian, a Buddhist, and a Jew - Mahatma Gandhi

Now surely even YOU should disagree with that. How can someone be a Hindu and a Muslim and a Christian and a Buddhist and a Jew?

Gandhi was obviously being politically correct (ie he didn't want to cause offence) when he made these quotes.

[Maya]

Originally Posted by zanjeer I don't care what Gandhi or that other fellow (whoever he is) said. I can show you quotes from people who praise Muhammad, and quotes people who criticise him. Why should we believe one over the other? Here's another quote from Gandhi. When someone asked him if he was a Hindu, his reply was: Yes I am, I am also a Muslim, a Christian, a Buddhist, and a Jew - Mahatma Gandhi Now surely even YOU should disagree with that. How can someone be a Hindu and a Muslim and a Christian and a Buddhist and a Jew? Gandhi was obviously being politically correct (ie he didn't want to cause offence) when he made these quotes.

Is that all you have to say in response to my post... People will make up their own minds on this thread now.

[incredible]

Originally Posted by Maya Is that all you have to say in response to my post... People will make up their own minds on this thread now.

LMAO that made me chuckle LOL

[zanjeer]

Originally Posted by incredible LMAO that made me chuckle LOL

Still grinning and chuckling like one of those chimps from the PG Tips adverts? I can do that too…

LMAO LOL