Why Don't / Why Do you believe in God?

[Scrooge]

what a load of BS. religion the cause of war? get real.

world war 1 and 2? vietnam war? american civil war? iraq war? afghan war? cold war?

some of u people are so ignorant towards religion its unreal. u live in the secularist west, the wars i have mentioned are they a result of religion or greedy capitalist pigs?

nd on the debate of the quran, il post a link up to a brother who directly challenges and debates about the trueness of the quran. zanjeer, iv come across people like u on other forums and you never were a muslim, thats just an act, to get the people listening of your crap. if u so badly want to disregard the quran, then il give u the link to the brother nd u can openly discuss with him. or PM me and lets get a proper debate going.

simple fact is, its been 1400 or so years since the quran was revealed and no one to this present day has been able to change a single verse of the quran and allah swt has challenged any single human to create a verse on the level of the quran, it still hasnt been done.

[zanjeer]

Originally Posted by Maya lol.. if you are looking for evidence, why are you not on an islamic forum then? hmm, how suspicious...

Why is it "suspicious"? This isn't Scooby Doo you know.

How do you know I don't post on Islamic forms as well? Whether I do or do not post on Islamic forums is irrelevant to this discussion.

Originally Posted by Maya There is no sake of argument about it, all of the minor signs I quoted are not only referenced in the quran but also in various hadith by Bukhari, Muslim, Tirmidhi, Ibn Majah, & Ahmad.

I want to read them from the Quran and I want to read them from the Hadith. I want to read what Muhammad supposedly said, unadulterated.

Why do Muslims who lack knowledge of their own religion enjoy copy and pasting from various websites instead of quoting from the actual source?

Originally Posted by Maya Why do you not consider the predictions to be miraculous? have you forgotton the time during which they were revealed? 1400 years sound familiar at all...

I can refute these so-called "miraculous" predictions one by one if you want. Let me begin with the easiest one:

The 2nd one says that Muhammad (who claimed to be a prophet) predicted the death of the prophet.

ie... Muhammad predicted that he's gonna die.

Let me ask you, if someone says that they're gonna die, then how the hell is this miraculous? I can predict that we're all gonna die. This isn't rocket science.

Please answer this, then we will move on to the others until I eventually refute them all.

Originally Posted by Maya The first two points you have cited, are referenced in the quran.. they were the words of Allah, not the prophet muhammed (pbuh) but if you have ever read the quran, you would know that...

You just made a big blunder there.

Earlier you said that these predictions were made by Muhammad... and now you're saying that the first 2 (so-called) predictions are the words of Allah, not Muhammad.

hm...

[zanjeer]

Originally Posted by Scrooge nd on the debate of the quran, il post a link up to a brother who directly challenges and debates about the trueness of the quran. zanjeer, iv come across people like u on other forums and you never were a muslim, thats just an act, to get the people listening of your crap. if u so badly want to disregard the quran, then il give u the link to the brother nd u can openly discuss with him. or PM me and lets get a proper debate going.

So you're just gonna give me a load of "links"?

Why? Don't you possess the knowledge to refute me yourself?

Why should I have to debate with a brother away from this forum? Why should I have to debate with you via PM?

Whatever needs to be said... why can't it be said on the forum infront of everyone? Why don't you tell your brother to join this forum and debate?

Originally Posted by Scrooge simple fact is, its been 1400 or so years since the quran was revealed and no one to this present day has been able to change a single verse of the quran

What does that prove? Why would anyone want to change whats written in the Quran?

Originally Posted by Scrooge and allah swt has challenged any single human to create a verse on the level of the quran, it still hasnt been done.

What a silly challenge. Who decides if a verse is on the level of the Quran or not? Surely this is subjective?

I have a challenge for you. Read the following sentence:

The cat sat on the mat.

^ Scrooge, I challenge you to create a sentence on the same level as that.

Go on...

[incredible]

Zanjeer it seems to me that you are on a mission/crusade to degrade Islam, seen as almost 90% if not more of your posts have been soley based on the critism of Islam.

Your post above is pointless and serves no purpose in your quest for knowledge on Islam. Scrooge made a point and you have just simply twisted it. just to give you an example, 'the cat sat on the mat'. The points Scrooge made are apparent.

Finaly I don't buy this Melarkey that you 'was' a Muslim. People like you are only afraid because every second there is a new Muslim born or a new convert. that's my opinion and belief anyway. I highly doubt I am wrong.

Anyways I will now give you an oppertunity to justify your actions to me. I look forward to hearing from you.

[zanjeer]

Originally Posted by incredible Zanjeer it seems to me that you are on a mission/crusade to degrade Islam, seen as almost 90% if not more of your posts have been soley based on the critism of Islam.

This merely reaffirms my view that although Muslims say that they invite people to ask questions and debate Islam... you can only go so far before they start to feel offended.

If I state my honest opinion about certain topics and issues regarding Islam... then why do you feel that I'm trying to "degrade" Islam?

Originally Posted by incredible Your post above is pointless and serves no purpose in your quest for knowledge on Islam. Scrooge made a point and you have just simply twisted it. just to give you an example, 'the cat sat on the mat'. The points Scrooge made are apparent.

No, my point was very valid.

I was pointing out any any text, whether it's the Quran or my sentence which said 'The cat sat on the mat' cannot be "challenged" in terms of literary because this is entirely subjective.

Originally Posted by incredible Finaly I don't buy this Melarkey that you 'was' a Muslim. People like you are only afraid because every second there is a new Muslim born or a new convert. that's my opinion and belief anyway. I highly doubt I am wrong.

If you don't wanna believe that I was raised as a Muslim that that's your prerogative, but I can tell you now that you ARE wrong.

What do you want me to do to prove it? Shall I recite some suras or something?

Originally Posted by incredible Anyways I will now give you an oppertunity to justify your actions to me. I look forward to hearing from you.

You want me to justify the fact that I'm participating in these religous discussions? And I'm giving my opinion on the the topics being discussed?

I thought that's what forums were for. It's not like I've created numerous insulting threads or anything. I haven't created any threads at all in fact.


What about you? Can you justifty the fact that you're trying to take this thread off on a tangent and you're trying to focus on vilifying me... instead of attempting to refute or debate the points I've raised?

[incredible]

Originally Posted by zanjeer This merely reaffirms my view that although Muslims say that they invite people to ask questions and debate Islam... you can only go so far before they start to feel offended. If I state my honest opinion about certain topics and issues regarding Islam... then why do you feel that I'm trying to "degrade" Islam? No, my point was very valid. I was pointing out any any text, whether it's the Quran or my sentence which said 'The cat sat on the mat' cannot be "challenged" in terms of literary because this is entirely subjective. If you don't wanna believe that I was raised as a Muslim that that's your prerogative, but I can tell you now that you ARE wrong. What do you want me to do to prove it? Shall I recite some suras or something? You want me to justify the fact that I'm participating in these religous discussions? And I'm giving my opinion on the the topics being discussed? I thought that's what forums were for. It's not like I've created numerous insulting threads or anything. I haven't created any threads at all in fact. What about you? Can you justifty the fact that you're trying to take this thread off on a tangent and you're trying to focus on vilifying me... instead of attempting to refute or debate the points I've raised?

Okay it is late, I am not going to have debate with you, which i shall commence tomorrow. Which no doubt I will kick your ass

But you know as well as I do the point scrooge was making. wheather it was subjective or not. We're not having a 'war of words here' stick to the point. Your view point is Islam is a made up religion. My view point is you are gravely wrong. I believe in Allah and Mohammed pbuh being his last prophet. End of.... happy days!

[incredible]

P.S what do you believe in? Just God? and you make up the rest as you go along, seen as you don't believe in any particular religion.

[zanjeer]

Originally Posted by incredible P.S what do you believe in? Just God? and you make up the rest as you go along, seen as you don't believe in any particular religion.

Yes that's correct.

[incredible]

Originally Posted by zanjeer Yes that's correct.

lol so here you are critising a religion, which ofcourse you have the right to do so. You have no idea what you follow yourself?

I maybe wrong, so what exactly do you believe in? and what have you made up yourself? How do you put it all together?

[mindstate]

god damn debatin til 3:22 at night....

zanjeer i share some of your views on religion...but i dont believe in ur methods and ur cause...and that's cool, because you're doing what you want to do...

sometimes its best to stay away from a person's beliefs as that is what their life is about....all a person has is their beliefs...and if one tries to take them away what are they left with it?....they become atheists and say fuck life....nah mean?...

if they are intrigued by ur beliefs then no doubt they don't need ur permission they'll feel the need to research what u believe in themselves...

[loki]

Originally Posted by mindstate sometimes its best to stay away from a person's beliefs as that is what their life is about....all a person has is their beliefs...and if one tries to take them away what are they left with it?....they become atheists and say fuck life....nah mean?...

no they don't. They could actaully start to understand what life really is. they could, as i did, understand that this is it. this is the only chance you get. no after life no heaven no reincarnation etc so its better to make the most of it and enjoy it while we have the chance

[DJ B4VVY]

Originally Posted by loki no they don't. They could actaully start to understand what life really is. they could, as i did, understand that this is it. this is the only chance you get. no after life no heaven no reincarnation etc so its better to make the most of it and enjoy it while we have the chance

That's what I believe too

[DJ B4VVY]

Originally Posted by zanjeer This merely reaffirms my view that although Muslims say that they invite people to ask questions and debate Islam... you can only go so far before they start to feel offended. If I state my honest opinion about certain topics and issues regarding Islam... then why do you feel that I'm trying to "degrade" Islam?

That's what some members first thought when I started asking questions but the ones who didn't think that told the others to stay out of it lol

[Maya]

Originally Posted by zanjeer Why is it "suspicious"? This isn't Scooby Doo you know.

Originally Posted by zanjeer How do you know I don't post on Islamic forms as well? Whether I do or do not post on Islamic forums is irrelevant to this discussion. lol... ok. Hmm, by the way, re - islamic forums... it's very relevant and a point I thought needed highlighting... I want to read them from the Quran and I want to read them from the Hadith. I want to read what Muhammad supposedly said, unadulterated. Why do Muslims who lack knowledge of their own religion enjoy copy and pasting from various websites instead of quoting from the actual source? So why don't you go read them then? If you don't have a quran then no doubt there will be a learned person on the islamic forum you post on that will be able to put you in touch with a scholar. You see, this is why and I quote, it all seems a bit 'scooby doo'... So far as your second point is concerned... I'm not the one struggling with understanding my religion here... I can refute these so-called "miraculous" predictions one by one if you want. Let me begin with the easiest one: The 2nd one says that Muhammad (who claimed to be a prophet) predicted the death of the prophet. ie... Muhammad predicted that he's gonna die. Let me ask you, if someone says that they're gonna die, then how the hell is this miraculous? I can predict that we're all gonna die. This isn't rocket science. Please answer this, then we will move on to the others until I eventually refute them all. Please do... I am interested to know how you can refute them one by one... I've got to hear this... So far as your second point is concerned, granted, death is certain for all of us and your quite right, there is nothing miraculous there at all, however, the Prophet (pbuh) knew when death was going to be upon him...if you want proof of this 'prediction' then all you have to do is read the opening of his last sermon... the sermon that he delivered on the Ninth Day of Dhul Hijjah 10 A.H in the Uranah Valley of mount Arafat... for ease of reference, I've posted it below.. "O People, lend me an attentive ear, for I don't know whether, after this year, I shall ever be amongst you again. Therefore listen to what I am saying to you carefully and take these words to those who could not be present here today. Is that proof enough for you? You just made a big blunder there. Earlier you said that these predictions were made by Muhammad... and now you're saying that the first 2 (so-called) predictions are the words of Allah, not Muhammad. hm...

No, I didn't make blunder... you are misquoting me and you know you are... I can see what you are tying to do though, your intentions are pretty clear... but just to clarify, the first two points you are referring to were the words of Allah and are cited in the quran... whether you choose to accept them or not, is of your own choice... however, as I have already proved the second point, let me prove the first...

"Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but (he is) the Apostle of God, and the Seal of the Prophets: and God has full knowledge of all things. (The Noble Quran, 33:40)"

So, the above verse proves that the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is the Prophet sent by Allah to Mankind.

Any other questions?

[mindstate]

Originally Posted by loki no they don't. They could actaully start to understand what life really is. they could, as i did, understand that this is it. this is the only chance you get. no after life no heaven no reincarnation etc so its better to make the most of it and enjoy it while we have the chance

yes, but it is better to find out on your self...because right now u sound like a preacher lecturing about how good life is without having a religion...it is not necessary every one will feel that way...right now for as long as im concerned ur just another preacher who is trying to get people to follow your way because you feel it is right...

when people tell you what to do instead of doing what YOU want to do then that's when people start living on other people's beliefs/morals/terms whatever...but hey im not going to stop you...do what you feel you need to do to get what you want to achieve...