Interview Zanjeer

[zanjeer]

Does science/reason rate high on the list of things to teach them?
Granted, it goes without saying that science helps us understand the very fibre of life, but science is limited by the potential of our own knowledge? Which at times, is flawed. As is human reason, which is probably even more so?

Yes science/reason does rate high. I’m not saying that I want my kids to all become scientists, but I think it’s good to take the scientific approach to things.

Where science is limited, it doesn’t fill the gap with mysticism, folk tales or superstition. It is forever evolving and discovering and seeks to discover based on evidence.

In the past, when people couldn’t give scientific explanations to natural phenomena’s, they came up with their own explanations based on their imagination rather than evidence. Most of these primitive explanations have been confined to history as science has progressed and given us answers, but the religious ones always seem to linger.

Thats where I feel religion and science differ. Religion in its own original sense, is pure. Its how people have come to misinterpret it which makes it all so flawed.

I disagree. It is the religion in its pure, original sense that I object to. Religion only becomes relatively bearable if you embellish it.

You mentioned people misinterpreting religion. It should be noted that Muslims are always complaining about the “misconceptions” in Islam, but most of the misconceptions are actually invented by Muslims themselves in their attempt to rationalise the religion. I’ve heard much more FALSE information about Islam coming from Muslims than I have from non-Muslims.

Some Muslims complain about culture being mixed with religion. They should actually be thankful that culture is mixed with religion because if you follow Islam unadulterated with very little external culture involved then you’ll soon discover how difficult it is.

Whats your idea of progress? Do you have a real model of society that you could compare the progress of Muslim societies with? Apart from Saudi, when I was ridiculously young, I have yet to be immersed in a Muslim country as an adult.. so I'm not so sure about this one.

There’s no perfect society. Some societies however are better than others in terms of less crime, better education, more personal freedom without impinging on other peoples freedoms, creativity, family values etc.

Zanjy... I'm curious.
Forget the elders, because they believe in Islam too much, but your friends and people you surround youself with, who are Muslims.
Surely, you try and tell them whether you think they're doing the wrong thing or not?
...or atleast have the desire to tell them.

Another Question i has was, has you leaving Islam made an afect on how any of your friends see you?

Two similar questions. None of my friends know that I’ve left Islam completely, and yes I do feel like telling them. I’ve come very close to telling 2 of them. These are the kinda “Muslim” friends who drink alcohol and who I eat haram KFC and Nandos with.

I lost contact with a lot of the pious Muslim friends I had, but when I bump into them I switch to Muslim-mode and I just play along.

Oh, and guess who's not an Islamic School Teacher anymore?

Shabaash (I don’t know what the Bengali equivalent of that word is).

When did u become a scholar?

I am not a scholar. Are you? I know my stuff though.

You don’t have to be fully qualified in a field in order to comment on it. I’m not a qualified mechanic but that doesn’t stop me from fixing shit in my car, or knowing when a mechanic is trying to rip me off with his overpriced shoddy work.

*theres a nice little Zakir Naik type analogy there, except it's much better than the ones he gives*

[zanjeer]

Hi Zanjeer. I am new to AP, therefore new to this thread, I apologise if you're bogged down with questions but I haven't got too much to ask, most of what I wanted to ask has been questioned/answered.

Hi SweetSuga. Feel free to ask me questions, that’s what this thread is for.

Have you ever prayed Salaah and how has it made you feel?

Yes of course I have prayed salaah many many times when I was a Muslim, and I even reluctantly do it now a few times a year. I used to pray 5 times a day in Ramadan plus the ultra-long taraweeh with jammat without fail, and outside of Ramadan there were times when I prayed all the daytime prayers (I didn’t go as far as waking up for fajr though).

They say that when it comes to performing a routine activity, motivation gets you started and habit keeps you going. The motivation for praying salaah was fear. The guilt of not doing it was what made me do it. After that it just became procedural and routine.

Sometimes it did feel good to just switch off and perform your salah, but I’m sure I’d get the same feeling if I just switched off and did yoga or tai chi.

In terms of communicating with or feeling closer to God, tbh salaah didn’t really do it for me. I felt like I was communicating more with God when I did the dua at the end. Or when I went to bed and did my little prayers in urdu or English (not Arabic), where I prayed for the well-being of the world, my family etc... that was when I felt like I was communicating to God. I still do this now infact (I still believe in God, just not the God depicted in any religion).

Also, if you are going through hard times what gives you hope?

I get a sense of perspective, I think of those less unfortunate than me. I'll try to expand on this some other time because it's a good question.

And, before scientific discoveries of complex things like the stages of an embryo, and the formation of an iceberg - this stuff was already printed in the Quran centuries before... What’s your view on this?

The Quran does not mention any scientific information that wasn’t already known at the time. There are no scientific miracles in the Quran.

I am aware that there are many glossy books and leaflets out there highlighting the so-called “scientific miracles” of the Quran, but if you focus on them one by one with an open mind (which is difficult for a Muslim who wants to believe to do) then you will discover that they are all bogus.

The stages of the embryo mentioned in the Quran are not only incorrect, but they were mentioned by the Greeks many centuries prior. I don’t recall any verses about the formation of an iceberg so you’re gonna have to enlighten me on that one.

And how do you feel when you hear Islam is the fastest growing religion on earth?

The “Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world” slogan which we often hear should be changed to “Muslims are the highest breeding religious group in the world”.

Generally, countries with lower levels of development, prosperity and education have a high birth rate. So the fact that Muslim countries have a high birth rate is only indicative of this.

In the West, Islam is growing primarily because of immigration + high birth rate. Some Muslims like to think that “The West is coming to Islam!”... which is a laughable statement to say the least. The West is not coming to the Islam. Muslims are coming to the West.

Of course it’s true that some people are converting to Islam as well, but I mainly put that down to them reading sugar-coated books which present a watered-down, dishonest, wishy-washy interpretation of Islam, or because they fell in love with a Muslim and had to “convert” for the sake of marriage, and various other reasons.

On the flip side, many people are leaving Islam too (especially in countries like Iran).

However, the big difference is that on the whole, you will experience less persecution for converting to Islam than you would for leaving Islam. In both instances, you will experience some difficulty from within the family, but when it comes to the wider society, ex-Muslims will always face more persecution.

For example, I think it’s quite rich for Muslims to boast about people converting to Islam when you consider the fact that even today, in the 21st century, leaving Islam is punishable by death in 8 countries (Saudi Arabia, Somalia, Qatar, Yemen, Iran, Sudan, Afghanistan, and Mauritania).

[incredible]

you didnt reply to my question. what's happened? I think it must've have been the most simplest question of the thread lol. But I can understand why it might have been difficult for you to answer.

Go on have an attempt at it.

[SweetSuga]

Thanks for answering them questions. This isn't a thread about my religious views so I won't question you further - you have given me honest and intelligent answers. In regards to the science/ Islam, if I can find out which verse I shall let you know. I haven't studied history so can't tell you how far back discoveries were made, maybe I should look into this myself at some point when I do read facts in islamic books. I also read you attended some talks for Islam awareness week. Ours begins tomorrow - and I know there will be a lot of people leaving with unanswered questions, but the fact you turned up makes a difference, every person does - there's no harm in wanting to learn and that is what I have tried to tell my non-muslim friends when inviting them along. If you still have unanswered questions I really suggest you speak to other scholars, they may give you further insight into Islam. I just hope you live with an open heart and wish you the best of luck in life.

[Maya]

I have a question for you Shackles. I find it very interesting that you are able to come on here and talk about Islam in such a negative way no doubt in the hope that someone is going to say, "wow Zanjeer, what a revelation" yet why is it you are not able to share these heart felt opinions with your family?

If you hold your new found principles close to your heart then surely you would live by them instead of hiding behind them?

[zanjeer]

Do you tell your parents everything about yourself Maya?

Unfortunately, many Muslims cannot comprehend the fact that a fellow Muslim can leave Islam. Unfortunately, some Muslims (including family) will become very unfriendly or even persecute an apostate. For others, it will be a shock to the system to discover that their own family member has become a kafir.

I can personally do without the hassle, and I'm sensible enough to not give anyone close to me any grief.

People on internet forums don't matter because none of you know me and none of you are related to me.

I do plan to tell some members of my family some day though... but not quite yet.

[Maya]

Do you tell your parents everything about yourself Maya?

Unfortunately, many Muslims cannot comprehend the fact that a fellow Muslim can leave Islam. Unfortunately, some Muslims (including family) will become very unfriendly or even persecute an apostate. For others, it will be a shock to the system to discover that their own family member has become a kafir.

I can personally do without the hassle, and I'm sensible enough to not give anyone close to me any grief.

People on internet forums don't matter because none of you know me and none of you are related to me.

I do plan to tell some members of my family some day though... but not quite yet.

I wouldn't lie to my parents that's for sure. You owe them the truth on this one Zanjeer.

[Zero]

Have to say it must be a very backwards Pakistani family if they would do any injustice to a person that has converted to a different religion or left Islam. Thats typical of the old school generation and community, the one's that regard some sort of honor above and beyond everything else lol. But obviously some families are different.

And before you say thats rubbish regarding the Pakistani mentality, I speak with my own family as example which there are people who have left Islam completely (not that they are not practicing, that they have LEFT and their choice has been respected. But not like we're not doing nothing about it heh).

I was wondering why you don't have an intro thread, or indeed any constructive thread to the forum itself. You don't want people to know about you or what you do with your time or what your hobbies are? Privacy respected. Or maybe all you want to talk about is Islam. You should've joined a Islamic Religious forum and debate with those that have even more knowledge on Islamic Issues than the people on the AsianPlace. The only event that probably would occur is that it would cause doubts and possibly fear in some muslim's hearts because they don't know enough. The famous phrase: "You will never understand everything...and you always fear, what you don't understand". People on here don't have enough TIME on their hands to do full Islamic research, like you who have seemed to spend many'a'month researching on, so they will not be able to set a concrete answer.

Also noted that not a single AsianPlacer has even attempted to try to be nice and converse with you outside of your religious posts to see who you really are as a person or if you have some sort of character (apart from those that engage in the PM'ing if they agree with your views etcetera) lol. Isn't there something you like doing? Do you like cookies perhaps? Unless your simply just an anti-islam b(ig)ot. See what I did there? Lulz. Maybe they have gone wary of religious discussion of yours so they see a dull scrooge like person, just a viewpoint in internet psychology of mine. And before you say I'm attacking you and start complaining to management, its just an opinion from what I see on the board.

[$xy $onz]

i hav skim read through so im sorry if im asking sumin which u already answerd but b4 i ask i wud say i am not against ur decision as evry1 has da ryts to choose there own path n ways

but i had noticed u said i hav not told ur famly n friends so basically infront of them all u r living a lie it dont mata if u doing it to keep them happy da fact is u r lying to them n it wud hurt them more if u r lying to them n faking to b a muslim so y not tell em n get out of the dilema

[SweetSuga]

Upon request lol. Zanjeer, is there anything you do now that you've left Islam that you didn't do before?.. For example.. you may not have had alcohol before - do you drink now? Or eating food that's haram - Would you have a full English breakfast now? Or is it just the case that forbidden fruit is more attractive and now that you have no restrictions, you're not really fussed about the once forbidden things?

Khush? =)

[zanjeer]

Have to say it must be a very backwards Pakistani family if they would do any injustice to a person that has converted to a different religion or left Islam. Thats typical of the old school generation and community, the one's that regard some sort of honor above and beyond everything else lol. But obviously some families are different.

Can I remind you Zero that it was Muhammad who said "Whoever changes his religion, kill him". Muhammads uncle Abu Lahab was against Islam and there’s a whole surah devoted to him in the Quran (surah 111) which curses him and says he’ll burn in hell.

So however backwards you think certain Pakistani families are, ask yourself if they're as "backwards" (your words, not mine) as Islam would want them to be.

And before you say thats rubbish regarding the Pakistani mentality, I speak with my own family as example which there are people who have left Islam completely (not that they are not practicing, that they have LEFT and their choice has been respected. But not like we're not doing nothing about it heh).

Nice to hear people in your family have left Islam. I'm interested to know what you're doing about it. What kinda dishonest dawah are you using on them?

Btw I never said that my family will react badly. Truth is that I simply DON’T KNOW how they’d react, and I just don’t want the hassle if I’m honest.

Also, you’re being very naive if you think it’s that easy for an apostate to tell their parents. There is quite simply a clash of ideas which you cannot ignore, however much you try to trivialise it.

The Muslim parents believe in Islam and it is repeated over and over again in the Quran that the disbelievers will go to hell. Now baring this in mind, how can a parent be ok with the fact that their son left Islam? If they have a ounce of imaan then they would NOT be ok with it. Like I said, it's simply a clash of ideas.

I was wondering why you don't have an intro thread, or indeed any constructive thread to the forum itself.

I have never ever created an intro thread in any forum that I have ever joined. I joined here in Oct 2008. I’m not going to create an intro thread now (17 months later). This Interview zanjeer thread is the closest you’re going to get.

You don't want people to know about you or what you do with your time or what your hobbies are? Privacy respected. Or maybe all you want to talk about is Islam. You should've joined a Islamic Religious forum and debate with those that have even more knowledge on Islamic Issues than the people on the AsianPlace. The only event that probably would occur is that it would cause doubts and possibly fear in some muslim's hearts because they don't know enough. The famous phrase: "You will never understand everything...and you always fear, what you don't understand". People on here don't have enough TIME on their hands to do full Islamic research, like you who have seemed to spend many'a'month researching on, so they will not be able to set a concrete answer.

I HAVE posted on Islamic religious forums in the past. Why can’t I post on here too? If people haven’t got the knowledge on here then either acquire the knowledge or ignore my posts. What’s the problem?

Also noted that not a single AsianPlacer has even attempted to try to be nice and converse with you outside of your religious posts to see who you really are as a person or if you have some sort of character (apart from those that engage in the PM'ing if they agree with your views etcetera) lol. Isn't there something you like doing? Do you like cookies perhaps? Unless your simply just an anti-islam b(ig)ot. See what I did there? Lulz. Maybe they have gone wary of religious discussion of yours so they see a dull scrooge like person, just a viewpoint in internet psychology of mine. And before you say I'm attacking you and start complaining to management, its just an opinion from what I see on the board.

With all due respect, I don’t care if people be nice to me on here or not. I’m not here to make friends, I’m just here to discuss and debate and engage in general banter.

Too many cookies are unhealthy, but I do snack on them from time to time. I like football, music, debating, news/politics, and other stuff.

Please learn what the word bigot means before you brandish it about. I think the attributes of a bigot can be applied to you more than me. A bigot is someone who refuses to entertain the thought that his/her beliefs could be wrong. Sounds a lot like you.

[Zero]

I didn't read that but I can do this:



So shame.

[zanjeer]

Upon request lol. Zanjeer, is there anything you do now that you've left Islam that you didn't do before?.. For example.. you may not have had alcohol before - do you drink now? Or eating food that's haram - Would you have a full English breakfast now? Or is it just the case that forbidden fruit is more attractive and now that you have no restrictions, you're not really fussed about the once forbidden things?

I eat exactly the same food I used to eat when I was a Muslim. Only difference is I don’t pay attention to whether the meat is halal or not. So I have no problem eating chicken from McDonalds or Nandos or KFC or Tesco or wherever (all non-halal).

I haven’t tried pork or bacon or any other pig meat, and I’m reluctant to do so. Infact I’m reluctant to try ANY new meat, whether it’s pig meat or turkey or rabbit meat or duck meat or whatever.

As for alcohol, when I’m out I always drink Coke and J20s, but sometimes my mates put vodka in the Coke (the sneaky sods!) and I just drink it. Although on the whole I’m a non-drinker, I don’t exactly avoid alcohol like the plague either.

I tasted beer ages ago and it tastes absolutely foul. It tastes like piss (not that I’ve ever tasted piss) so I stay well away from that stuff. I don’t see the point in drinking alcohol if I don’t like the taste of it.

Btw I wouldn’t say I have no restrictions. It isn’t only religion that puts restrictions on you. Every action has some sort of reaction afterall. When it comes to food and drink, the price and taste and the health effects of the food/drink can be considered restrictions and they’re are all taken into consideration.

[Tariq2009]

Zanjeer what I would say to you is that I've realised it impossible to have a discussion/debate with people on a subject on which emotions play a massive part in the shaping of their beliefs/opinions. That's the problem with religious folks, faith is based on emotion, assumptions and presumptions and not logic, facts and evidence.

It's like if if a man is told my his best friend that his wife is cheating on him, he wont believe his best friend becos he's so emotionally attached to his wife, objectivity is thrown out of the window.

[Zero]